Talking Footy

BS file claim#20: (AR's was) invented by two New South Welshmen based on Marngrook which was played across the country well before Captain Cook.

Claimant: NSWAFL

Challenger: King-Eliagh

Challenged: 1600 16/2/12

Xman I never challenged that two new south welshmen invented marngrook, just that it was played across the country. I also never challenged that marngrook was played before captain cooks arrival. just for clarification, thanks.

King-Eliagh wrote:

Xman I never challenged that two new south welshmen invented marngrook, just that it was played across the country. I also never challenged that marngrook was played before captain cooks arrival. just for clarification, thanks.

You reported a post with a number of claims. you never made it totally clear. What the hell are you challenging then?

I'm challenging against the claim that marngrook was played across the country of Australia.

King-Eliagh wrote:

I'm challenging against the claim that marngrook was played across the country of Australia.

Fine then. That's one of the conditions in the file title and needs to be proven by NSWAFL.

That's the only condition I challenged him on. Lets make that clear Xman. I dont wanna be screwed around here.

B&S point coming my way and maybe a dumbarse point for Dunce!

(AR's was) invented by two New South Welshmen......
The two men were Tom Wills, who was born in Gundagai, New South Wales ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Wills ), and Henry Harrison, who was born in Picton, New South Wales ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._C._A._Harrison ). Both were involved in the drawing up of the rules along with others, even though Wills was the one who got most if not all of the credit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of ... s_football

...based on Marngrook...
Refer to the link above about the origins of the game. Marn Grook was one of the three primary sources.

...which was played across the country well before Captain Cook.
Two links for this one;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marn_Grook
http://www.aboriginalrules.com/warlpiri.html

The fact that the game, or a version thereof, was played in two distinct areas miles from each other, it follows that it is possible that it was played in many other places as well. Dunce and anyone else are in no position to deny that possibility on the available evidence. Note that in the Origins link that it mentioned Marn Grook as just one of the many Aboriginal pastimes. Purlja (the name of the game in Central Australia) could well have been one of them.

Purlja was similar but not the same as marngrook as is highlighted in your own link nsw, and note the word evidence in the first sentence below.

"Evidence supports such games being played primarily by the Djabwurrung and Jardwadjali[3] people and other tribes in the Wimmera, The Mallee and Millewa regions of western Victoria, Australia (which are commonly associated with the name "Marn Grook"); however, according to some accounts, the range extended to the Wurundjeri in the Yarra Valley, the Gunai people of Gippsland region in Victoria and the Riverina in south western New South Wales. The Walpiri tribe of Central Australia played a very similar kicking and catching game with possum skins known as Pultja.[4]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marn_Grook

NSW you have stated that pultja was the same game, when it wasnt and that

NSWAFL wrote:

The fact that the game, or a version thereof, was played in two distinct areas miles from each other, it follows that it is possible that it was played in many other places as well

It is possible? I'm sorry nsw but you claimed it was played across Australia, not that it is "possible" it was played across Australia.

Prove your claim or give up now nsw, i'd prefer a quick battle so if you know you cant prove it just let Xman know.

King-Eliagh wrote:

Purlja was similar but not the same as marngrook as is highlighted in your own link nsw, and note the word evidence in the first sentence below.

"Evidence supports such games being played primarily by the Djabwurrung and Jardwadjali[3] people and other tribes in the Wimmera, The Mallee and Millewa regions of western Victoria, Australia (which are commonly associated with the name "Marn Grook"); however, according to some accounts, the range extended to the Wurundjeri in the Yarra Valley, the Gunai people of Gippsland region in Victoria and the Riverina in south western New South Wales. The Walpiri tribe of Central Australia played a very similar kicking and catching game with possum skins known as Pultja.[4]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marn_Grook

NSW you have stated that pultja was the same game, when it wasnt and that

NSWAFL wrote:

The fact that the game, or a version thereof, was played in two distinct areas miles from each other, it follows that it is possible that it was played in many other places as well

It is possible? I'm sorry nsw but you claimed it was played across Australia, not that it is "possible" it was played across Australia.

Prove your claim or give up now nsw, i'd prefer a quick battle so if you know you cant prove it just let Xman know.

Doesn't this say "and other tribes in the Wimmera, The Mallee and Millewa regions of western Victoria, Australia...the range extended to the Wurundjeri in the Yarra Valley, the Gunai people of Gippsland region in Victoria and the Riverina in south western New South Wales"?

I would say that is across Australia.

Yes it does and I agree that it seems to have been played alot in the south eastern part of the country. An area that would be approximately one 15th or less of Australias land mass.

Would you really say this is across Australia Xman? If yes, its back to geography for you sonny!

King-Eliagh wrote:

Yes it does and I agree that it seems to have been played alot in the south eastern part of the country. An area that would be approximately one 15th or less of Australias land mass.

Would you really say this is across Australia Xman? If yes, its back to geography for you sonny!

It depends on the definition of "across Australia". The nRL say they are national but they clearly do not have teams across Australia in a geographical sense. If we use this definition then NSWAFL's claim seems correct.

We're not using the nrls definition. And seriously, stop trying to provide nsw with an out here. Across Australia means ACROSS AUSTRALIA. Its simple and I want evidence of marngrook being played from margaret river to arnhem land to port augusta and to the torres strait. If nsw provides evidence of the sport being played across the country in a fashion similar to this i'll stand back and applaud and thank him for informing me of something. If not, he deserves a BS point and you know it Xman. "Depends on the definition of across Australia" How lame.

It was played in Central Australia. Similar is close enough to the same. The end.

No SIMILAR is not the SAME game. Rugby Union is similar to Rugby League. AR is similar to Gaelic Football.

And the similar game pultja was played by the Warlpiri who, in fact, only belonged to one region of Central Aus. There's no evidence of the Arrernte, Anmetje, Kaytetye, Luritja, Pintupi etc etc people of Central Australia playing marngrook, or even a similar sport.

Yes I believe it is, "The end" now nsw. You've got nothing else do you?

Xman wrote:

I would say that is across Australia.

I agree. No adjective like "widely" or "comprehensively" was used.