Tanking in AFL, coaches speak out.

[pookus]

Look at the facts,it is common knowledge.Wallace,mooney,mathews and many other greats have conceded it happened and if you think the McCleans dont know footy then you obviously dont no much about the game in Victoria.The family are legend in suburban footy.They have forgotten more than youll ever know. I ask you this if it was beneficial to win those games would they have "experimented".If the answer is no then they have tanked.Simply they didnt do everything in their power to win. They should be absolutely trashed for bringing our game in to disrepute.

1. I know more about grass roots footy that even the McCleans thanks to my project, my various ports of call visiting clubs and my umpiring. So don't give me that "suburban legend" stuff.
2. The answer is "Yes". The benefit for experimentation is to find something that works because obvious previously in the season what they had tried did not work. The aim being to try to find the right combination to win. In the case of Melbourne it didn't work - and that is always the risk that experimenting carries. Clubs who will miss the finals will take that risk to try and find out what can work and if they need to get rid of people.

So McClean didn't know. He didn't want to know. As far as he was concerned, Melbourne shouldn't have been experimenting. They should have been plugging away with what he thinks was the Demon's strongest points - which by that time clearly were NOT WINNING THEM GAMES! Are you suggesting that a club should plug away with what doesn't work?? Come on, Pookus, stop defending McClean! He's got it all wrong and not only should he admit that, so should you and everyone else who thinks tanking occurred.

And just on the other names - they were addressing if anything the potential for tanking, not any actual tanking. And that's the primary reason why the AFL changed the rule regarding priority picks.

Eel, West Sydney have not thrown a game in their life!

Mate when youve played one game of AFL footy give me a yell.You must be drinking your own bathwater if you think you know football better than any of these guys.Now lets put some onus on you.You show me one move that provided improvement for that club and furthermore one account of Brock that says e lacks knowledge or integrity.Im sorry but Ill take the word of those in the inner workings of a football club than someone who wants to blindly defend the indefensible.It is OK to experiment but if you do it at the detriment to your team then it is incompetent. As Bailey said he was asked to do thing that contradicted his ideas.Surely the head coach is the one to do the experimenting,it would seem the order came from elsewhere.If that is the case then surely the tail was wagging the dog.

[TLPG]

I've umpired over 500 games, Pookus, and I've seen the inner workings of a large number of clubs through my historical research and of a wide scale as well (from non AFL heartland NSW to northern WA and other states and territories with only NT and Queensland not on my list). Brock can spout experience all he wants - he opposes experimentation. That's a lack of knowledge and integrity right there. You show me the detriment that was suffered. Oh that's right - you can't. Because there wasn't one - except for this misplaced publicity that was started by people like you and KE.

I'll put this on the record though. If indeed the Melbourne hierachy ordered Bailey to throw games - there can be only one penalty. Throw them out of the AFL. That's why the AFL investigated in the first place. But I can't believe someone like Jim Stynes (RIP) would allow such a thing on his watch - he was president at the time and did a great job getting the club out of debt. Part of that would be to develop the club with fresh bodies. Testing out what they had across the field under those circumstances was the right thing to do and several failed. That's the risk of experimentation. There is also such a thing as a test of passion - which I wouldn't put past Stynes at all! And I think a few people were found out at that point - and it probably included McClean!

Get it now, Pookus?

[King-Eliagh]

You must be drinking your own bathwater

I've umpired over 500 games

500 games of the under 7s. Stop drinking your own bathwater TLPG, its foul.

[pookus]

How does disagreeing with the incompetent tactics of a guy who has admitted they werent his ideas make brock stupid or a liar.The only disgrace here is that your willing to besmirch the reputation of a man known for his integrity to score some brownie points on an insignificant forum. I dont care if you have umpired a 1000 country games you have no idea of the inner workings of an AFL club.For you to just dismiss what others are saying simply because you dont want to believe it shows your ignorance and puts a mark on your integrity.And if you cant see the pain that these decisions brought the MFC then you dont watch footy and trust me on this you are in the minority much greater minds than yours and mine have had there doubts.And I think the latter part of your statement says it all.Your outrage is what we would all feel thus the cover up.Yesterday the commision changed the priority rule forever giving them the discretion to hand it out.Surely blind freddy can see that this was done to stop tanking.Just heard Russell Robertson has said that he wont answer questions as he refuses to incriminate himself looks like hes ignorant and stupid as well.

[eelofwest]

How does disagreeing with the incompetent tactics of a guy who has admitted they werent his ideas make brock stupid or a liar.The only disgrace here is that your willing to besmirch the reputation of a man known for his integrity to score some brownie points on an insignificant forum. I dont care if you have umpired a 1000 country games you have no idea of the inner workings of an AFL club.For you to just dismiss what others are saying simply because you dont want to believe it shows your ignorance and puts a mark on your integrity.And if you cant see the pain that these decisions brought the MFC then you dont watch footy and trust me on this you are in the minority much greater minds than yours and mine have had there doubts.And I think the latter part of your statement says it all.Your outrage is what we would all feel thus the cover up.Yesterday the commision changed the priority rule forever giving them the discretion to hand it out.Surely blind freddy can see that this was done to stop tanking.Just heard Russell Robertson has said that he wont answer questions as he refuses to incriminate himself looks like hes ignorant and stupid as well.

Excellent post pookus. =D>

TPLG AKA Blind Freddy i think it is high time you admit to yourself that tanking happened in the AFL, the sooner you do this the quicker you can save your mind the anguish and just move on..

[TLPG]

How does disagreeing with the incompetent tactics of a guy who has admitted they werent his ideas make brock stupid or a liar.

Incompetent? That's McClean's opinion, and it's not worth a cracker.

The only disgrace here is that your willing to besmirch the reputation of a man known for his integrity to score some brownie points on an insignificant forum.

Integrity? He was found to lack passion at the time, and that's why he left. Lucky for him he got it back at Carlton. If he had passion at the time he would have stayed with Melbourne. And given a chance I would say that to his face.

I dont care if you have umpired a 1000 country games you have no idea of the inner workings of an AFL club.

Every club works in a similar manner - whether it be Melbourne, Carlton, Exmouth, Port Kembla, Donvale, Payneham/Norwood Union, Cable Beach.....need I go on? The only difference between the AFL clubs and the others is the turnover. Monetary I mean.

For you to just dismiss what others are saying simply because you dont want to believe it shows your ignorance and puts a mark on your integrity.

I don't believe because it's not there. Trying create something out of nothing is a bigger mark on one's integrity and that's what McClean is trying to do. There is no positive proof. There is only innuendo. A person who relies on innuendo is a loser from the get go.

And if you cant see the pain that these decisions brought the MFC then you dont watch footy and trust me on this you are in the minority much greater minds than yours and mine have had there doubts.

What pain? They had bigger things to worry about more recently - like the loss of Jim Stynes. They were trying to improve their playing stocks and get rid of the dead wood. That's what the experimentation was all about. All clubs have done it at some point. Gold Coast and West Sydney are doing it now. Are they trying not to win? Come on!

Yesterday the commision changed the priority rule forever giving them the discretion to hand it out.Surely blind freddy can see that this was done to stop tanking.Just heard Russell Robertson has said that he wont answer questions as he refuses to incriminate himself looks like hes ignorant and stupid as well.

The rule was changed to stop this negative publicity based in a lie - not a truth. It was changed to stop the POSSIBILITY of tanking. It was changed to stop all this speculative talk that is damaging the game. No one has actually done it. Not Melbourne. Not Carlton. Not anyone. There is no positive evidence otherwise, and that's what you, KE, Eel and the others who are flogging this dead horse can't get past. Russ refused to answer because he wasn't going to continue to address an speculative issue that needs to be killed off so we can move on.

[King-Eliagh]

"The only difference between AFL clubs and amateur clubs is the money turnover"

This one tells us just how much TLPG knows about the inner workings of an AFL club. Jack diddly!

the rule was changed to stop the negative publicity based on a lie

And if true this one tells us that the AFL has little to no integrity. What sort of organisation would make massive policy change based on what they know is a lie completely opposes what policy change is all about!

On the other hand this line tells us TLPG is wrong and dumb.

TLPG its high time you stop your charades and wake up and smell the pumpkins. The truth is there for all to see. Stop fighting it.

[pookus]

How does disagreeing with the incompetent tactics of a guy who has admitted they werent his ideas make brock stupid or a liar.

Incompetent? That's McClean's opinion, and it's not worth a cracker.

The only disgrace here is that your willing to besmirch the reputation of a man known for his integrity to score some brownie points on an insignificant forum.

Integrity? He was found to lack passion at the time, and that's why he left. Lucky for him he got it back at Carlton. If he had passion at the time he would have stayed with Melbourne. And given a chance I would say that to his face.

I dont care if you have umpired a 1000 country games you have no idea of the inner workings of an AFL club.

Every club works in a similar manner - whether it be Melbourne, Carlton, Exmouth, Port Kembla, Donvale, Payneham/Norwood Union, Cable Beach.....need I go on? The only difference between the AFL clubs and the others is the turnover. Monetary I mean.

For you to just dismiss what others are saying simply because you dont want to believe it shows your ignorance and puts a mark on your integrity.

I don't believe because it's not there. Trying create something out of nothing is a bigger mark on one's integrity and that's what McClean is trying to do. There is no positive proof. There is only innuendo. A person who relies on innuendo is a loser from the get go.

And if you cant see the pain that these decisions brought the MFC then you dont watch footy and trust me on this you are in the minority much greater minds than yours and mine have had there doubts.

What pain? They had bigger things to worry about more recently - like the loss of Jim Stynes. They were trying to improve their playing stocks and get rid of the dead wood. That's what the experimentation was all about. All clubs have done it at some point. Gold Coast and West Sydney are doing it now. Are they trying not to win? Come on!

Yesterday the commision changed the priority rule forever giving them the discretion to hand it out.Surely blind freddy can see that this was done to stop tanking.Just heard Russell Robertson has said that he wont answer questions as he refuses to incriminate himself looks like hes ignorant and stupid as well.

The rule was changed to stop this negative publicity based in a lie - not a truth. It was changed to stop the POSSIBILITY of tanking. It was changed to stop all this speculative talk that is damaging the game. No one has actually done it. Not Melbourne. Not Carlton. Not anyone. There is no positive evidence otherwise, and that's what you, KE, Eel and the others who are flogging this dead horse can't get past. Russ refused to answer because he wasn't going to continue to address an speculative issue that needs to be killed off so we can move on.

1] Melbourne decided Bailey was incompetent they sacked him.When they did he basically said his incompetence wasnt of his own doing.Then whose was it. And as I have stated whose opinion would be more informed.A member of the leadership group or a bloke who umpires in the bush.You sure you dont work for the AFL.

2]Where does it state Brock left because lack of passion Bullshit.He left in disgust and if you remember Melbourne did not want him to go.

3]How can you possibly believe that a local football club is ran the same as an AFL club.What a joke.I wont even go into the differences but really your a goose.

4]What pain.What kind of culture did they create by losing.Ironically the guy they tanked to get left to find a club with better culture. GWS.

5]It was changed because blind freddy could see it was a mistake.It gave incentive to lose.Melbourne just took the bait. Just admit it on this one they got ir wrong. And if you had the discussion with Brock he would rightly say to you WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT ANYTHING. He was there he stated his case and you seem to think you know better because your a bush umpire. You have no weight to the argument that brock is a liar you are just saying this to justify your own nonsense. He is very inconvenient for the point you are trying to make so you wipe him. This is a very ignorant and dangerous stand to make. If we dont face the truth we cant fix it.

[King-Eliagh]

Superb points pookus. Spot on.

[Xman]

Brock left Melbourne who were accused of tanking to go to Carlton who were also accused of tanking.

[pookus]

Brock left Melbourne who were accused of tanking to go to Carlton who were also accused of tanking.

How would he know that,he can only speak about the situation he was in.To make that assumption about a club he knows nothing about would be silly.Wouldnt it.

[Xman]

Brock left Melbourne who were accused of tanking to go to Carlton who were also accused of tanking.

How would he know that,he can only speak about the situation he was in.To make that assumption about a club he knows nothing about would be silly.Wouldnt it.

What? Carlton have been crap for years and highly suspected of tanking for Gibbs and Kruizer. Was his head in the sand?

Surely his high morale standing against Melbourne should be questioned when joiningg a team in a similar position.

[pookus]

Look the reality is Brock believed it was happening Bailey conceded as much.Now you can choose to believe him or choose to believe he was lying.As I have stated I KNOW the man and he is not one for lies.You people have decided for your own arguments sake that he is lying.That is what the deluded do.What possible reason would he have to lie.He went to Carlton because he wouldve landed there in the draft anyway and you are not privvy to the conversation they had to get him over.Again you are assasinating a mans character to prove a point.An intelligent man would concede that there is doubt.As the big D said in EMT the other night.Unless there is a smoking gun the AFL cant act.Not at any stage did he say Brock was wrong.

[TLPG]

1] Melbourne decided Bailey was incompetent they sacked him.When they did he basically said his incompetence wasnt of his own doing.Then whose was it. And as I have stated whose opinion would be more informed.A member of the leadership group or a bloke who umpires in the bush.You sure you dont work for the AFL.

Bailey was a poor coach full stop. I said that even before this situation came up. Yes he was incompetent. Those who are claiming there is something foul going on are biased towards their own interests. I have no bias - which is why (combined with my vast experience) my word is better than those you are claiming are worth listening to.

2]Where does it state Brock left because lack of passion Bullshit.He left in disgust and if you remember Melbourne did not want him to go.

And yet they let him. That's because they realised he wasn't loyal - and therefore had no passion.

3]How can you possibly believe that a local football club is ran the same as an AFL club.What a joke.I wont even go into the differences but really your a goose.

Go into them - and I'll pull them apart piece by piece. You are the goose if you think administratively (as distinct from financially) Melbourne or Carlton operate differently to Donvale or Exmouth.

4]What pain.What kind of culture did they create by losing.Ironically the guy they tanked to get left to find a club with better culture. GWS.

Scully went for the money and for no other reason. That's why Melbourne fans hate his guts - and rightly so. He didn't jump from a losing culture. Heck, he went to another club who at present are losing by even more!! Explain your way out of THAT one!

5]It was changed because blind freddy could see it was a mistake.It gave incentive to lose.Melbourne just took the bait. Just admit it on this one they got ir wrong. And if you had the discussion with Brock he would rightly say to you WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT ANYTHING. He was there he stated his case and you seem to think you know better because your a bush umpire. You have no weight to the argument that brock is a liar you are just saying this to justify your own nonsense. He is very inconvenient for the point you are trying to make so you wipe him. This is a very ignorant and dangerous stand to make. If we dont face the truth we cant fix it.

I know better not just because I've umpired over 500 games in the middle (almost 800 if you include goals BTW), but because of my historical research - which up until now you are completely ignoring. McClean was a passionless moron. He was at Melbourne at the wrong time in his career and didn't understand the positives of experimentation - so he bailed like a coward. THAT is the inconvenient truth, and there is nothing to fix. Unless someone DID actually admit word for word that they tanked. But there is no one at Melbourne saying those words. Until they do - whether out of conscience or by force - there was no tanking.

The rule was changed due to misrepresentative publicity - and for no other reason.

So tell me, Pookus - how many club officials have you spoken to and how many clubs? How many league officials have you spoken to and how many leagues? Who is the highest ranked official in the game that you have had a decent conversation with in your life? I'll bet even McClean can't beat me on numbers at a bare minimum, let alone you.

[eelofwest]

Look the reality is Brock believed it was happening Bailey conceded as much.Now you can choose to believe him or choose to believe he was lying.As I have stated I KNOW the man and he is not one for lies.You people have decided for your own arguments sake that he is lying.That is what the deluded do.What possible reason would he have to lie.He went to Carlton because he wouldve landed there in the draft anyway and you are not privvy to the conversation they had to get him over.Again you are assasinating a mans character to prove a point.An intelligent man would concede that there is doubt.As the big D said in EMT the other night.Unless there is a smoking gun the AFL cant act.Not at any stage did he say Brock was wrong.

Yes these 2 dingbats (tpg, Xman) always assume/make stuff up to suit there arguments Pookus. These 2 gooses will insult there mother if it swayed the argument in there favor...

Welcome to Our world Pookus.

The forum were you bring damming evidence to the table and they bring assumptions, Lies, and dribble....