History and the origins of Australia’s Game

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Re: Melbourne Storm V Sydney Roosters

Post by Terry »

Quolls2019 wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:15 pm
Terry wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:31 am
TLPG wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:55 pm


The game's base - while taking some aspects from British sport - is Marn Grook. As Australian as you can get.

Aboriginal links???

"Gillian Hibbins in the AFL's official account of the game's history published in 2008 for the game's 150th celebrations sternly rejects the theory:

Understandably, the appealing idea that Australian Football is a truly Australian native game recognising the indigenous people, rather than deriving solely from a colonial dependence upon the British background, has been uncritically embraced and accepted. Sadly, this emotional belief lacks any intellectual credibility."

THE END!
Ahh terrybull, not often I agree with you,,,but this time…dread I say…you are right, not entirely, but certainly about the first nations connection. The colonial dependance is far more debatable.

Thanks pal, I knew you'd come around!!!
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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by AFLcrap1 »

Terry wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:09 pm
TLPG wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:12 pm
The AFL is wrong. That history is incomplete.
Well sports fans here's a first!!!! I believe the AFL is right!!!!!!! Yep, the 'ol Tezza has for the first time in his life uttered these words.

And here's another incredible statement: I never thought there could be a worst poster here than bummy, beatup and Fwed. Well there is..........possibly the greatest dill of talkingfooty history..............come on down TLPG lolololololol!!!!!!
Yep
Contrary to reality he thinks he is never wrong

Bizarre thinking.
Maybe a ph call To ASADA will help .

Proper historians .. not pretend ones like this clown have refuted the story long ago .
The old kicking around possum ball or whatever myth it was has been debunked .
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Re: Melbourne Storm V Sydney Roosters

Post by Quolls2019 »

Terry wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:23 pm
Quolls2019 wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:15 pm
Terry wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:31 am



Aboriginal links???

"Gillian Hibbins in the AFL's official account of the game's history published in 2008 for the game's 150th celebrations sternly rejects the theory:

Understandably, the appealing idea that Australian Football is a truly Australian native game recognising the indigenous people, rather than deriving solely from a colonial dependence upon the British background, has been uncritically embraced and accepted. Sadly, this emotional belief lacks any intellectual credibility."

THE END!
Ahh terrybull, not often I agree with you,,,but this time…dread I say…you are right, not entirely, but certainly about the first nations connection. The colonial dependance is far more debatable.

Thanks pal, I knew you'd come around!!!
Ahh terrybull, don’t get to excited, I agree with you on that point.
Unlike many, not all, on this site I try to assess the point, not attack the poster just because they are the poster or which code they follow.
And many is an exaggeration for the of posters we have now.
There are lies, damn lies and then there are ratings.
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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by TLPG »

Terry wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:09 pm
TLPG wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:12 pm
The AFL is wrong. That history is incomplete.
Well sports fans here's a first!!!! I believe the AFL is right!!!!!!! Yep, the 'ol Tezza has for the first time in his life uttered these words.

And here's another incredible statement: I never thought there could be a worst poster here than bummy, beatup and Fwed. Well there is..........possibly the greatest dill of talkingfooty history..............come on down TLPG lolololololol!!!!!!
I'll stay where I am thank, with the truth that the First Australians have been repressed - again. Even over 150 years after the fact.
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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by Quolls2019 »

TLPG wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:59 pm
Terry wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:09 pm
TLPG wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:12 pm
The AFL is wrong. That history is incomplete.
Well sports fans here's a first!!!! I believe the AFL is right!!!!!!! Yep, the 'ol Tezza has for the first time in his life uttered these words.

And here's another incredible statement: I never thought there could be a worst poster here than bummy, beatup and Fwed. Well there is..........possibly the greatest dill of talkingfooty history..............come on down TLPG lolololololol!!!!!!
I'll stay where I am thank, with the truth that the First Australians have been repressed - again. Even over 150 years after the fact.
I do not disagree that the “first” Australians have been repressed at that time and later…but not about footballl…
There are lies, damn lies and then there are ratings.
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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by TLPG »

Yes they have. Back then - and even now. Ask Adam Goodes. And Nicky Winmar.
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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by Quolls2019 »

TLPG wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:22 pm
Yes they have. Back then - and even now. Ask Adam Goodes. And Nicky Winmar.
Not then, not now, intermediate times yes, after Doug nicholls how many “first” nation players have there been? Lots. How many were booed?
adam goodes was not booed because he was “first nation” he was booed because, although a great player, he was a whiner, it grew from there.
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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by TLPG »

He might have whined a bit, but that didn't justify the amount of booing he got. The racists were hiding behind the others, and got away with it. Nicky Winmar was not a whiner. And that is Sir Doug Nicholls, a man I was lucky enough to meet when I was just 9. (Shut up, TBomb, before you stick your nose in and say anything!)

While I was logged out I did some digging and a few corrections. While Tom Wills didn't draw the rules up, he did umpire the Scotch College v Melbourne Grammar game. And he did see Marn Grook being played in the west of the state well before that.
There are many historical records that show Marngrook being played across Victoria. For example, the following is a description from the ‘Assistant Protector of Aborigines’ in Victoria, William Thomas, in 1858:

The ball is kicked into the air not along the ground, there is a general scramble at the ball…When caught it is again kicked up in the air with great force and ascends as straight up and as high as when thrown by hand. (Source: Meanjin)
https://www.deadlystory.com/page/cultur ... _Marngrook

The AFL history completely ignored this - hence the repression.
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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by Quolls2019 »

TLPG wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:50 pm
He might have whined a bit, but that didn't justify the amount of booing he got. The racists were hiding behind the others, and got away with it. Nicky Winmar was not a whiner. And that is Sir Doug Nicholls, a man I was lucky enough to meet when I was just 9. (Shut up, TBomb, before you stick your nose in and say anything!)

While I was logged out I did some digging and a few corrections. While Tom Wills didn't draw the rules up, he did umpire the Scotch College v Melbourne Grammar game. And he did see Marn Grook being played in the west of the state well before that.
There are many historical records that show Marngrook being played across Victoria. For example, the following is a description from the ‘Assistant Protector of Aborigines’ in Victoria, William Thomas, in 1858:

The ball is kicked into the air not along the ground, there is a general scramble at the ball…When caught it is again kicked up in the air with great force and ascends as straight up and as high as when thrown by hand. (Source: Meanjin)
https://www.deadlystory.com/page/cultur ... _Marngrook

The AFL history completely ignored this - hence the repression.
Im sorry sir.

“And he did see Marn Grook being played in the west of the state well before that.”
Give me the facts on that
There are lies, damn lies and then there are ratings.
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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by Quolls2019 »

TLPG wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:50 pm
He might have whined a bit, but that didn't justify the amount of booing he got. The racists were hiding behind the others, and got away with it. Nicky Winmar was not a whiner. And that is Sir Doug Nicholls, a man I was lucky enough to meet when I was just 9. (Shut up, TBomb, before you stick your nose in and say anything!)

While I was logged out I did some digging and a few corrections. While Tom Wills didn't draw the rules up, he did umpire the Scotch College v Melbourne Grammar game. And he did see Marn Grook being played in the west of the state well before that.
There are many historical records that show Marngrook being played across Victoria. For example, the following is a description from the ‘Assistant Protector of Aborigines’ in Victoria, William Thomas, in 1858:

The ball is kicked into the air not along the ground, there is a general scramble at the ball…When caught it is again kicked up in the air with great force and ascends as straight up and as high as when thrown by hand. (Source: Meanjin)
https://www.deadlystory.com/page/cultur ... _Marngrook

The AFL history completely ignored this - hence the repression.
I have never said that ball games were not played by the first Australians. Ball games were played in most areas of the world, long before written records (historical for you) and recorded after. Get something that can roll, kick or throw and it will be done.
Most of the pacific islands did not have such games…except New Zealand

Kī-o-rahi is a ball sport played in New Zealand with a small round ball called a 'kī'. It is a fast-paced game incorporating skills similar to rugby union, netball, tag rugby and touch. An indigenous game imbued with tikanga Māori with a very long history ... of a pre-European nature.

So they influenced Rugby?
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Re: Melbourne Storm V Sydney Roosters

Post by Fred »

Quolls2019 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:16 am
TLPG wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:09 pm
4. And saw Marn Grook being played by the First Australians.

I'm not saying they started it. I'm saying it had an influence - and speaking as a historian I find it hard to believe it didn't. It makes no sense given that union bears no resemblance to our game and Marn Grook does. Gaelic football does to and for the record while it wasn't codified until later (1870's) it was still about as an idea surely?
No influence at all.
And several of the early rules of Canterbury, Rugby and Blackheath had rules very similar to Australian rules.
The first rules of association football allowed kicking through the posts and catching the ball for a free kick by making a mark.
And a Description of the Rules of Football as played at Shrewsbury School (1855).

1. Each side could consist of twelve, or of an unlimited number.
2. A match was decided by the best out of three 'games' (i.e. goals).
3. A goal could be kicked at any height.
4. A player who caught the ball direct from a kick could take a 'hoist' (i.e. drop kick); otherwise the ball might not be handled.
5. No one might stand wilfully between the ball and his opponent's goal.

Lots of similar but different games played in the english schools.

Tom Wills had significant contact with local aboriginals in 3 colonies as a child, youth and an adult before and after his English trip, on a cultural, personal and sports basis.
He was a prolific writer, mentions many things about aboriginal sporting prowess, but never mentions any form of native football.
The mark/catch and kicking practices were well established in some the English public schools when the members of the rules committee attended them.

Some historians have mentioned the influence of irishman Tom Smith in the formation of the first rules.

Thomas Smith was the Irishman who was part of the first Melbourne rules committee.

He was educated at Trinity College, Dublin, formally and officially known as College of the Holy and Undivided Trinity of Queen Elizabeth.
This is a Protestant established University to promote the ideals of the English establishment and
suppress local tradition, beliefs and practices. It did not support, or allow any native practices including sport.
Until 1793 Catholics were prohibited from attending and after that date admission was via a process of vigorous religious testing that very few Catholics passed, they were still banned from any teaching or authority positions.

In 1871 the catholic authorities of Ireland banned all Catholics from attending this college.

Smith graduated from the university around 1852 and arrived in Victoria 1858.
Irishman in name only, grew up in a Protestant, heavily English dominated, environment where it very unlikely he was aware of much if any of the Irish culture.

At this time there is no record of any organised Irish football being played, as generally, Irish culture was suppressed. Mob, village and town football was certainly played on occasion and in some parts of the country was referred to as caid.

At the time Trinity College played a game akin to early rugby but with sufficient enough differences that when an English student from Rugby College, Charles West, watched a game in the 1850’s he commented that it was “Rugby of sorts”.

The other first rules committee members were also English educated gentleman, Wills was born in Australia but spent his higher education years in England. He was an outstanding sportsman and played both cricket and football at rugby, and cricket, and possibly football at Cambridge, both colleges played a significantly different style of game.

Rugby came from soccer - Rl came from. Rugby Union. I’m sure Australian Rules had many influences - from many sports. Just like our great country. Australian Rules is uniquely Auatralian with influences from all over. Again, it what makes our country great and makes our (Australia’s) game great.

All my own opinion - do your own research :)
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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by TLPG »

Quolls2019 wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:54 pm
TLPG wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:50 pm
He might have whined a bit, but that didn't justify the amount of booing he got. The racists were hiding behind the others, and got away with it. Nicky Winmar was not a whiner. And that is Sir Doug Nicholls, a man I was lucky enough to meet when I was just 9. (Shut up, TBomb, before you stick your nose in and say anything!)

While I was logged out I did some digging and a few corrections. While Tom Wills didn't draw the rules up, he did umpire the Scotch College v Melbourne Grammar game. And he did see Marn Grook being played in the west of the state well before that.
There are many historical records that show Marngrook being played across Victoria. For example, the following is a description from the ‘Assistant Protector of Aborigines’ in Victoria, William Thomas, in 1858:

The ball is kicked into the air not along the ground, there is a general scramble at the ball…When caught it is again kicked up in the air with great force and ascends as straight up and as high as when thrown by hand. (Source: Meanjin)
https://www.deadlystory.com/page/cultur ... _Marngrook

The AFL history completely ignored this - hence the repression.
Im sorry sir.

“And he did see Marn Grook being played in the west of the state well before that.”
Give me the facts on that
Read the link again. It made it clear that he played with the indigenous kids. Therefore as Marn Grook was being played out there he would have seen it!

Re the New Zealand game - a question. When was union first played in England? And I'm talking about before the rules were codified (which as we know was after 1858). If it was after 1772, then it is very possible that a member of the crew of the Endeavour would have seen the New Zealand game.
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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by Quolls2019 »

TLPG wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 3:38 pm
Quolls2019 wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:54 pm
TLPG wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:50 pm
He might have whined a bit, but that didn't justify the amount of booing he got. The racists were hiding behind the others, and got away with it. Nicky Winmar was not a whiner. And that is Sir Doug Nicholls, a man I was lucky enough to meet when I was just 9. (Shut up, TBomb, before you stick your nose in and say anything!)

While I was logged out I did some digging and a few corrections. While Tom Wills didn't draw the rules up, he did umpire the Scotch College v Melbourne Grammar game. And he did see Marn Grook being played in the west of the state well before that.


https://www.deadlystory.com/page/cultur ... _Marngrook

The AFL history completely ignored this - hence the repression.
Im sorry sir.

“And he did see Marn Grook being played in the west of the state well before that.”
Give me the facts on that
Read the link again. It made it clear that he played with the indigenous kids. Therefore as Marn Grook was being played out there he would have seen it!

Re the New Zealand game - a question. When was union first played in England? And I'm talking about before the rules were codified (which as we know was after 1858). If it was after 1772, then it is very possible that a member of the crew of the Endeavour would have seen the New Zealand game.
Show me the contemporary link not the revisionist impressionist assessment.
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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by TLPG »

Revisionist??

*throws arms in the air*

There's a view I could give in response to that, but I'm going to be polite and overlook it as careless ignorance and a reduced feel for game. The accusation you aimed at me there is insulting. We're done.
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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by Quolls2019 »

TLPG wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:46 pm
Revisionist??

*throws arms in the air*

There's a view I could give in response to that, but I'm going to be polite and overlook it as careless ignorance and a reduced feel for game. The accusation you aimed at me there is insulting. We're done.
Show n
Me the link, “im done” is a cop out.
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