History and the origins of Australia’s Game

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Re: Melbourne Storm V Sydney Roosters

Post by Quolls2019 »

truthbomber wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:51 am the .... laughable .. simply ... pathetic attempt to pretend the derps & giggles was some derivative of an ancient game played by native australians in an attempt to appear... more australian

shows what this sport will do , will misrepresent & lie about to further its agenda
[/quote

Well, I'm saying it wasn't, most historians now say it wasn't, contemporary evidence says it wasn't, the AFL (now) says it wasn’t, so who are talking about?


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Re: Melbourne Storm V Sydney Roosters

Post by Quolls2019 »

truthbomber wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:40 am
Quolls2019 wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:05 pm
truthbomber wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:15 pm

nothing to do with Gaelic football ? 8-[

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl: :rofl: :(/ :(/ :(/
sure

the hand pass , the bouncing ... the posts
all stolen from Irelands national game
wow
fumblers & their utter lies :^o :^o :^o :^o [-( [-( [-( [-( [-(
Except that the rules for Gaelic Football were not written until 1884.

“ The first account of what the founders of modern Gaelic football referred to as Irish football date to 1873. Paddy Begley notes that in County Kerry in 1870 only soccer and rugby were played, although historian Paddy Foley notes that by 1874 a third, very different form of football began to emerge and spread across South-West Ireland. At Killarney, these highly popular matches were virtually indistinguishable from the Victorian Rules (first codified in 1859 and then played extensively in the Colony of Victoria and Colony of Queensland and to a lesser extent in the colonies of New South Wales and New Zealand). This kicking variety of football was even played with an oval ball which became customary in Australia in the 1870s and that scoring was achieved only by kicking goals. A major difference between the two styles is that Irish variety featured high kicking "up and under" whereas in colonial Victoria, the little marks or foot passes were much more common. While the founders of the game were all familiar with or played rugby, including Cusack and Davin, few had actually played Irish football as it was so rare outside of the South-West, though the influence of this football on the founders was obvious, this is most likely the "football kicking under the Irish rules" that Thomas Croke later recalled in County Cork.

Irish football is a great game and worth going a long way to see when played on a fairly laid out ground and under proper rules. Many old people say just hurling exceeded it as a trial of men. I would not care to see either game now as the rules stand at present. I may say there are no rules and therefore those games are often dangerous.
Maurice Davin, 1884.

Irish historian Garnham, citing R.M. Peter's Irish Football Annual of 1880, argued that Gaelic Football did not actually exist prior to the 1880s and curious on the origin of the distinctive features was of the belief that clubs from England in 1868 most likely introduced elements of their codes including the "mark" (a free kick to players who cleanly catch the ball, which was a feature of the matches played in the 1880s) and scoring by kicking between the upright posts. Unable to identify the source of these peculiar traits he believed they were introduced from English clubs Trinity (1854) and Blackheath (1862) who had their own distinctive rules.”
hahah

trott out all the articles you want

your sport is just a mish mash of other games including Irish football..
not unique at all
As I have said before, comprehension is not your strongest point.
The original Melbourne Rules were a mish mash of rules from the English Public School System because the rule writers had experience with that game, but Gaelic football had nothing to do with it.

What became Gaelic Football was not played until 1884 with rules not written until 1887.
Types of football were played in Ireland before this time as it was in the Colony of NSW before the Melbourne rule were written, well before, including “professional games”.
And there are reports of irish soldiers and irish miners playing their local games in the early days just as there are reports of many other football games played throughout the colony.

26/12/1838 at Mrs Hordens. Just landed, a large assortment ...dolls... footballs....cricket bats.
17/6/1850 Border games to be held 12/8/1850 Foot-ball entrance fee five shillings ten pound to the winning side.
12/8/1850 Port Phillip/Border Games included foot-ball.
18/11/1850 Geelong celebrations included foot-ball.
26/8/1850 (a) Melbourne race course, the long awaited game of football came off.

Many types of football played all over the world, but the initial influences that led to what became Australian rules all came from the British Public School system.
It can be argued that the 1866 rules introduced the first of the unique aspects of Australian Rules and they were formulated by someone who was born here and did not go to England to study.


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Re: Melbourne Storm V Sydney Roosters

Post by cehar5 »

truthbomber wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:51 am the .... laughable .. simply ... pathetic attempt to pretend the derps & giggles was some derivative of an ancient game played by native australians in an attempt to appear... more australian

shows what this sport will do , will misrepresent & lie about to further its agenda
I bet you storm roosters doesn't sell out like you said it would. If you lose you must leave the forum. You called the other guy gutless for not taking your bet, so take mine.
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TLPG (Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:57 am)


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Re: Melbourne Storm V Sydney Roosters

Post by TLPG »

Quolls2019 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:16 am
TLPG wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:09 pm 4. And saw Marn Grook being played by the First Australians.

I'm not saying they started it. I'm saying it had an influence - and speaking as a historian I find it hard to believe it didn't. It makes no sense given that union bears no resemblance to our game and Marn Grook does. Gaelic football does to and for the record while it wasn't codified until later (1870's) it was still about as an idea surely?
No influence at all.
And several of the early rules of Canterbury, Rugby and Blackheath had rules very similar to Australian rules.
The first rules of association football allowed kicking through the posts and catching the ball for a free kick by making a mark.
And a Description of the Rules of Football as played at Shrewsbury School (1855).

1. Each side could consist of twelve, or of an unlimited number.
2. A match was decided by the best out of three 'games' (i.e. goals).
3. A goal could be kicked at any height.
4. A player who caught the ball direct from a kick could take a 'hoist' (i.e. drop kick); otherwise the ball might not be handled.
5. No one might stand wilfully between the ball and his opponent's goal.

Lots of similar but different games played in the english schools.

Tom Wills had significant contact with local aboriginals in 3 colonies as a child, youth and an adult before and after his English trip, on a cultural, personal and sports basis.
He was a prolific writer, mentions many things about aboriginal sporting prowess, but never mentions any form of native football.
The mark/catch and kicking practices were well established in some the English public schools when the members of the rules committee attended them.

Some historians have mentioned the influence of irishman Tom Smith in the formation of the first rules.

Thomas Smith was the Irishman who was part of the first Melbourne rules committee.

He was educated at Trinity College, Dublin, formally and officially known as College of the Holy and Undivided Trinity of Queen Elizabeth.
This is a Protestant established University to promote the ideals of the English establishment and
suppress local tradition, beliefs and practices. It did not support, or allow any native practices including sport.
Until 1793 Catholics were prohibited from attending and after that date admission was via a process of vigorous religious testing that very few Catholics passed, they were still banned from any teaching or authority positions.

In 1871 the catholic authorities of Ireland banned all Catholics from attending this college.

Smith graduated from the university around 1852 and arrived in Victoria 1858.
Irishman in name only, grew up in a Protestant, heavily English dominated, environment where it very unlikely he was aware of much if any of the Irish culture.

At this time there is no record of any organised Irish football being played, as generally, Irish culture was suppressed. Mob, village and town football was certainly played on occasion and in some parts of the country was referred to as caid.

At the time Trinity College played a game akin to early rugby but with sufficient enough differences that when an English student from Rugby College, Charles West, watched a game in the 1850’s he commented that it was “Rugby of sorts”.

The other first rules committee members were also English educated gentleman, Wills was born in Australia but spent his higher education years in England. He was an outstanding sportsman and played both cricket and football at rugby, and cricket, and possibly football at Cambridge, both colleges played a significantly different style of game.
One thing that I have found over the years - well decades actually - that I have been a historian, I know not to take anything from that time that was written with a grain of salt when it comes to the First Australians. Anyone who did was segregated in an instant because they regarded the indigenous population as savages. It's the reason why when our Constitution was written and agreed to it included a section that stated that the First Australians would not be counted as part of the population (a section repealed in 1967). We have come a long way since those ridiculous and ignorant days. It would be why Wills was put down - because he broke that rule. But word would have got around anyway, and Wills wasn't the only person to have broken the rule. That's the real reason Marn Grook got around without being written about. It had an influence. It wasn't 100 percent what you were talking about because it can't have been. Sure, it played a role, but it wasn't everything.

What you are relying on there is a lot of presumption by others. Even with the notes on the Irishman who was a Protestant - he can not possibly have had everything hidden from him (unless he was in prison). People have eyes and gain experience from what they see. They don't have to write about it. If a tree falls and no one writes about it - it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.


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Re: Melbourne Storm V Sydney Roosters

Post by Quolls2019 »

TLPG wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:14 pm
Quolls2019 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:16 am
TLPG wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:09 pm 4. And saw Marn Grook being played by the First Australians.

I'm not saying they started it. I'm saying it had an influence - and speaking as a historian I find it hard to believe it didn't. It makes no sense given that union bears no resemblance to our game and Marn Grook does. Gaelic football does to and for the record while it wasn't codified until later (1870's) it was still about as an idea surely?
No influence at all.
And several of the early rules of Canterbury, Rugby and Blackheath had rules very similar to Australian rules.
The first rules of association football allowed kicking through the posts and catching the ball for a free kick by making a mark.
And a Description of the Rules of Football as played at Shrewsbury School (1855).

1. Each side could consist of twelve, or of an unlimited number.
2. A match was decided by the best out of three 'games' (i.e. goals).
3. A goal could be kicked at any height.
4. A player who caught the ball direct from a kick could take a 'hoist' (i.e. drop kick); otherwise the ball might not be handled.
5. No one might stand wilfully between the ball and his opponent's goal.

Lots of similar but different games played in the english schools.

Tom Wills had significant contact with local aboriginals in 3 colonies as a child, youth and an adult before and after his English trip, on a cultural, personal and sports basis.
He was a prolific writer, mentions many things about aboriginal sporting prowess, but never mentions any form of native football.
The mark/catch and kicking practices were well established in some the English public schools when the members of the rules committee attended them.

Some historians have mentioned the influence of irishman Tom Smith in the formation of the first rules.

Thomas Smith was the Irishman who was part of the first Melbourne rules committee.

He was educated at Trinity College, Dublin, formally and officially known as College of the Holy and Undivided Trinity of Queen Elizabeth.
This is a Protestant established University to promote the ideals of the English establishment and
suppress local tradition, beliefs and practices. It did not support, or allow any native practices including sport.
Until 1793 Catholics were prohibited from attending and after that date admission was via a process of vigorous religious testing that very few Catholics passed, they were still banned from any teaching or authority positions.

In 1871 the catholic authorities of Ireland banned all Catholics from attending this college.

Smith graduated from the university around 1852 and arrived in Victoria 1858.
Irishman in name only, grew up in a Protestant, heavily English dominated, environment where it very unlikely he was aware of much if any of the Irish culture.

At this time there is no record of any organised Irish football being played, as generally, Irish culture was suppressed. Mob, village and town football was certainly played on occasion and in some parts of the country was referred to as caid.

At the time Trinity College played a game akin to early rugby but with sufficient enough differences that when an English student from Rugby College, Charles West, watched a game in the 1850’s he commented that it was “Rugby of sorts”.

The other first rules committee members were also English educated gentleman, Wills was born in Australia but spent his higher education years in England. He was an outstanding sportsman and played both cricket and football at rugby, and cricket, and possibly football at Cambridge, both colleges played a significantly different style of game.
One thing that I have found over the years - well decades actually - that I have been a historian, I know not to take anything from that time that was written with a grain of salt when it comes to the First Australians. Anyone who did was segregated in an instant because they regarded the indigenous population as savages. It's the reason why when our Constitution was written and agreed to it included a section that stated that the First Australians would not be counted as part of the population (a section repealed in 1967). We have come a long way since those ridiculous and ignorant days. It would be why Wills was put down - because he broke that rule. But word would have got around anyway, and Wills wasn't the only person to have broken the rule. That's the real reason Marn Grook got around without being written about. It had an influence. It wasn't 100 percent what you were talking about because it can't have been. Sure, it played a role, but it wasn't everything.

What you are relying on there is a lot of presumption by others. Even with the notes on the Irishman who was a Protestant - he can not possibly have had everything hidden from him (unless he was in prison). People have eyes and gain experience from what they see. They don't have to write about it. If a tree falls and no one writes about it - it doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
As a historian, It’s my belief you are wanting.
You certainly are a lot of things.
What I’m relying on is what was recorded at the time…you know…history…


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Re: Melbourne Storm V Sydney Roosters

Post by TLPG »

And I am informing you that history is incomplete in writing. That is my experience.


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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by Fred »

What's it matter what or how the game came about - Australian Rules Football was invented in Australia and indigenous to Australia. That's not an argument surely - simply fact. Sure, it obviously had influences from other games - as people from around the world come to settle - but that just typifies just how australian it is - just like this great country we live in os founded on the best (and sometimes worst) influences from around the world. As to the influence of the local indigenous communities - it would not be unreasonable to think that if there was a game similar in way - that some things were not borrowed from that too. Proving it may be difficult on all accounts as to what and how - however it would be reasonable to assume some influence from many sources across the board. Not sure what the big deal is - we now have a uniquely Australian game that is enjoyed by millions across the country as a whole.
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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by pussycat Mark 11 »

Who was it that led the charge?


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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by TLPG »

pussycat Mark 11 wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:01 am Who was it that led the charge?
Who cares????


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Re: Melbourne Storm V Sydney Roosters

Post by Terry »

TLPG wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:55 pm
truthbomber wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:24 pm
TLPG wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 6:42 pm

Aussie Rules is Australian.

Thugby League is British.

Enough said.
derps n misses was invented by an aboriginal murdering drunk , in the British Colony of Vicderpia
its a mish mash any number of British sports including union & Gaelic football ( irish)

its either despised or treated with complete contempt in half of Australia

when half of a country has little to no interest in a sport, that sport has no right to that countrys name :cool:
The game's base - while taking some aspects from British sport - is Marn Grook. As Australian as you can get.

Aboriginal links???

"Gillian Hibbins in the AFL's official account of the game's history published in 2008 for the game's 150th celebrations sternly rejects the theory:

Understandably, the appealing idea that Australian Football is a truly Australian native game recognising the indigenous people, rather than deriving solely from a colonial dependence upon the British background, has been uncritically embraced and accepted. Sadly, this emotional belief lacks any intellectual credibility."

THE END!


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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by TLPG »

The AFL is wrong. That history is incomplete.
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Re: Melbourne Storm V Sydney Roosters

Post by Quolls2019 »

truthbomber wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:51 am the .... laughable .. simply ... pathetic attempt to pretend the derps & giggles was some derivative of an ancient game played by native australians in an attempt to appear... more australian

shows what this sport will do , will misrepresent & lie about to further its agenda
Go back and read what I posted trollbomber. I am saying it did not come from marn grook…no influence at all.
So what what are you reading.


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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by Quolls2019 »

pussycat Mark 11 wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:01 am Who was it that led the charge?
James Bryant…for commercial reasons…did it well though.


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Re: History and the origins of Australia’s Game

Post by Terry »

TLPG wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:12 pm The AFL is wrong. That history is incomplete.
Well sports fans here's a first!!!! I believe the AFL is right!!!!!!! Yep, the 'ol Tezza has for the first time in his life uttered these words.

And here's another incredible statement: I never thought there could be a worst poster here than bummy, beatup and Fwed. Well there is..........possibly the greatest dill of talkingfooty history..............come on down TLPG lolololololol!!!!!!


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Re: Melbourne Storm V Sydney Roosters

Post by Quolls2019 »

Terry wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:31 am
TLPG wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:55 pm
truthbomber wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:24 pm

derps n misses was invented by an aboriginal murdering drunk , in the British Colony of Vicderpia
its a mish mash any number of British sports including union & Gaelic football ( irish)

its either despised or treated with complete contempt in half of Australia

when half of a country has little to no interest in a sport, that sport has no right to that countrys name :cool:
The game's base - while taking some aspects from British sport - is Marn Grook. As Australian as you can get.

Aboriginal links???

"Gillian Hibbins in the AFL's official account of the game's history published in 2008 for the game's 150th celebrations sternly rejects the theory:

Understandably, the appealing idea that Australian Football is a truly Australian native game recognising the indigenous people, rather than deriving solely from a colonial dependence upon the British background, has been uncritically embraced and accepted. Sadly, this emotional belief lacks any intellectual credibility."

THE END!
Ahh terrybull, not often I agree with you,,,but this time…dread I say…you are right, not entirely, but certainly about the first nations connection. The colonial dependance is far more debatable.


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